“I don’t pay as much attention to the look or message of the artists themselves. That can be distracting. I try to treat it in a somewhat synthetic manner: turning the audio in to pure visuals; getting a sense of shape, colour and texture before filling in the blanks.”
I'm a big fan of Michael Cina's output. But it's evident that the designer is incredibly busy with a whole raft of projects emanating from his Minneapolis base. Which makes me even more grateful that he agreed to answer my annoying four-questions-in-one enquiries.
The work you've produced for Ghostly appears to explore your more abstract side. Are there distinct meanings between these images and what you hear? Are they meant to be obscure enough that they can be read in a number of ways? And who do you have in mind when you create them?
What I have tried to do for Ghostly is to make work that explores my interests, thoughts, and feelings. If work has no content, it is just an image. I have tried to produce something that is timeless and very personal to me.
The trick is, when I am creating this work, it is also for someone else also. So there is a duality that plays in the creation. I consider the music in every cover, but some pieces are tied to the music more than others.
Like all art, the viewer has to come with some interest in "seeing" the work to get anything out of it. With abstract work, you have to be a bit more open and have a willingness to learn.
The process also plays a big part. I explore a lot of ideas and directions for most of the projects. Some of the covers took me over 75 pieces to get to that final one. Very few of the projects have been nailed on the first try. So I really just think about my ideas and also if those ideas work with what I am doing. This is where the design background comes in handy.
How do you feel these images on formats might relate to the idea of providing a physical form for music? How important is it for you to find what you see is the 'right' visual solution for a release? And does it matter to the music? Does it alter the listening experience?
I have been making artwork for a long time and I was tired of the work being reduced to a jpg on a screen. I am not naive by thinking that music packaging is often taken seriously, but that is a shame. Anything that a person does should be done with care and thought. There is too much garbage out there already. My hope is that people will buy the album for the cover, even if they don't like the music or buy it out of curiosity. I have purchased many albums just because of the cover and it does make me think about the music from the context of the cover.
I am a perfectionist, if you don't give me feedback in one day or so, I will keep working in different directions. I have had a couple of projects where I have overwhelmed the musicians with the amount of visual work I show them. Deep down I normally know if it is right or not. If something makes me feel uncomfortable, I know I am almost there.
What are your thoughts about the Matthew Dear 'Totem' as a representation for music?
I really love it. Will Calcutt is a bright guy and a talented artist. Music packaging has to change. I have been pushing the art print aspect at Ghostly since 2008. It is important that people make work that challenges and that is exactly what the totem does. It is a little early for the viewer / audience to wrap their heads around what Ghostly is doing, but the day is coming. The totem is beautiful and serves as a work of art but also has a connection to the album. It isn't just for art's sake.
How do you think the download age changes music artwork? Is it good that we're moving away from artwork not needing to be 'packaging? Or are we potentially losing formats as significant cultural emblems?
The download age for sure changes music artwork. Cover art isn't as important and also is reduced to 100 pixels when sold or viewed most of the time. It makes an argument for more minimal graphics but it also puts the cover as a secondary aspect of the album. In the 70's and 80's the cover was almost as important as the music. I can only guess this is why there is so many bad covers out there now.
I don't see the cover as packaging. I see it more like art that represents what is inside. It should add to the experience. The music that Ghostly releases isn't disposable. They put a lot of thought and care into their artists and what comes out. It is a crime what some designers do to an amazing album of music. It doesn't make me sad to see the shift away from not needing packaging, but without a proper solution, such as prints, we are losing something significant to the music experience.
I only buy music on vinyl unless I am forced to buy another format. I think vinyl has been the only format that has been successful combining visuals and audio. That is why so many people are interested in this format. Until high definition audio comes, there is really no other alternative for me.
What's the approach to formats for the label? Why does having physical media matter when the music can be sent rather easily via iTunes? What legacy do you think there is for specific formats? How important is collectability? And 'a visual manifestation'?
I don't know if I have the liberty to speak for Ghostly, but I do know that there is a lot of skepticism over the CD format and also vinyl, for that matter. Ghostly has been pressing limited vinyl releases with better packaging now. I love this because if I really like an album, sometimes I will buy two copies, just incase. I am a collector though. I have a handful of friends that do the same thing. Some people don't care as much. To me, the CD format is on it's last legs. You can download uncompressed audio and make your own CD if you want.
[Ghostly founder] Sam Valenti is extremely concerned with the visual manifestation of the covers, more than anyone could know. I think he cares about the visuals just as much as the music.
What has been the response to the making available some of the artwork as ltd prints? And do you think it changes the meanings behind the imagery when it is removed from the packaging and the music?
People really seem to respond well to this. I have a couple of people who want all the prints and buy all of them on sight. I don't think that hanging a print on your wall detracts anything. It can only add more aspects if other people like the work and don't know if it is an album cover as well.
Any personally influential music artwork that you think is worth referencing?
Easy ones are almost anything on 4AD, ECM, Factory Records, Blue Note, and a couple of others. I like Hipgnosis, Peter Saville, Vaughn Oliver, and Barney Bubbles. I am attracted to odd art and concepts on covers.
Michael Cina links:
http://michaelcinaassociates.com/
http://www.trueistrue.com/
http://www.flickr.com/people/mikecina/
http://cargocollective.com/michaelcinaart
http://www.youworkforthem.com/
http://www.behance.net/michaelcina
http://ghostly.com/visual/mike-cina
What is your current stance is regarding the reported plight of artwork in this digital era?
I find it difficult to give you an answer that is a general view on the subject. My own personal opinion for the way I experience the subject is I find it difficult to connect to the music the same way when it is just a file on the computer than when I have it as a physical object. I think there is more than one reason to it, the physicality of the album itself, the way of purchase (even if I just get it of amazon, I have to wait for it, unwrap it etc) the image on a piece of paper that I can move around, everything that comes with an album as well. I have a very large digital music library on my computer, both copied from friends or my own CDs but I often just listen to the actual CD or LP. It is also easier to choose music this way.
What do specific music formats symbolise for you: vinyl, tapes, CDs and MP3s. Culturally? Aesthetically? Technologically?
Vinyl symbolizes the best way to communicate with music for me. Its a bit nostalgic and also it makes me feel a bit different from a lot of other people who consume music in a more disposable way.
Tapes - tapes were kinda cool when I was at school but I don't really miss them.
CD - although an ugly form I still like CDs because they are easy to handle and only have one side. Although I like the ritual of changing sides on a vinyl it is a ritual and sometimes its easier to just dump something on the stereo and get uninterrupted 70 minutes.
MP3's - I really don't like music on the computer. On the other hand I LOVE my iPod. There is something really intimate and special in listening to music that way. It is a bit like being alone with your music at home, but having other visuals.
What do you make of the personal investment in and reverence of specific formats? Their fetishism, notalgia, sentimentality, etc?
I think there is something very charming about vinyl collectors, however, it is very clear that this is an 'exotic' hobby these days. There is some sort of antagonism, a need to do something different in these people usually. I respect everybody's way to enjoy music and I think that the reason a lot of people are into MP3s are because they are more of casual listeners. People who are more into their music will probably still have a stereo.
What about the download age? Where do you think this leaves the physical music 'product' in an age where it's not required just to aid distribution?
As I mentioned before I think physical media will become more and more exotic. I always thought people will have the need to hold an album, but when I see my younger brother who NEVER bought a CD in his life although he is really into music, I think I might need to change my mind about it.
And what do you think this means in terms of the earlier assumption that music artwork = packaging? What possibilities do you think this may present for designers?
I think there is a magical connection between music and visual but it might take other formats in the future. I think at some point all digital media will be moving and/or interactive. I think that would also be the case with artwork for music: some sort of hybrid between album artwork and music video.
With their new book, Love Song, about to be published, we asked our CRBlog readers to send in their questions for design studio Non-Format. From the benefits inherent in doing work for free; to designing together side-by-side; via questions on their music (and pizza) tastes, we probed Jon and Kjell on behalf of some of their biggest fans...
From James White:
Labels like Lo have shown that they’re in full support of beautiful and effective design. Are these sorts of labels in a decline and does the digital revolution bring with it a fear that one day record sleeves might no longer exist?
Jon Forss: The second part of the question is the easiest to answer – yes, obviously the digital revolution will completely eradicate the need for record sleeves eventually; for printed carboard sleeves or jewel cases.
Kjell Ekhorn: Hopefully anyway!
JF: Yes, let’s hope so!
KE: Maybe the download will become much more expressive than they are now? You would get video with it or some visual material I’m sure. It would be a platform for designers again.
JF: It would mean a lot less work if you’re just doing print-based music packaging but I’d hope we’re broad-minded enough to see the potential in other formats.
KE: Yes, it’s like anything that moves on. There was that whole thing about LPs dying and CDs being too small…
JF: The “we can’t express ourselves on a small scale” idea. And then people come along like Mark Farrow to show that CD packaging can be an amazing piece of expression. Music doesn’t need packaging, as such, but I think it’s good that it has some kind of visual element.
KE: It needs some kind of visual culture to back it up. Music packaging is never repackaged; books are repackaged over and over again but with music – even if the cover is bad – it’s still an integral part of a release.From Jordan Viray:
Being that your portfolio is filled with music packaging, how much of a role does music play in your design process?
JF: Although we haven’t got any on right now but we do play music all the time. We like to listen to what we’re designing for, too, as much as we can. It’s a funny process – when we design music packaging we don’t listen to the music so that we’ll therefore know exactly what kind of packaging it will be. It just comes out of listening to it, getting a mood and a feel for it.
KE: It definitely informs the way it’s going to a certain extent. But sometimes it stops ideas too. You can have a preconceived idea and then put on the CD and you change your mind.From Robert Klanten, publisher, Die Gestalten Verlag:
I’d like to know how you work together as a design duo on a daily basis. Is there a culture of discussion and debate or a miraculous, mutual, wordless understanding like an old married couple might have?
JF: I’d say there is a certain spoken understanding between us. But in practice, we start every project by discussing everything about it together. Whoever’s least busy starts on a project straight away.
KE: Because we sit like we do, with the monitors towards each other, it’s very open – you might sketch on something and the other one will say “that’s looks really good, can I have a copy of the file?” It’s a continuous dialogue really.From Tony Herrington, editor in chief and publisher of The Wire:
Bowie or Roxy?
JF: That’s easy for me. Bowie. No, actually, Roxy. No it’s Bowie.
KE: Bowie for me.
JF: OK, I’ll say Roxy so we have an even spread.
Someone once said about you, “They are secretive, stubborn, arrogant [but also] dazzlingly creative, technically brilliant, cool and pragmatic and 100 per cent reliable.” Discuss.
JF: It’s all true.
KE: Apart from the latter part – that’s not for us to judge. But we can easily say we’re secretive, in not wanting to show off our “pre-work” work. As an assessment from a client, though, I agree with the statement. And the arrogance comes from that, I guess – just being passionate about something. When you have to fight for something. When clients say “I don’t like it” you have to say “well you don’t know, you should listen to us.”From Adrian Shaughnessy, This is Real Art:
I’m intrigued by the way you sit side by side, but with your screens facing inwards so that each can see what the other is doing. Lots of designers hate showing there developmental work, do you recommend this as a good way to work?
KE: It is a matter of trust – when you work with another designer on that level it’s much more like how advertising teams work where you actually share everything. You can be working on something and be completely stuck but then the other person can see the possibilities. But if you do that with a designer who you’re not in tune with, it obviously doesn’t work at all. When we’re sharing work we know that it doesn’t go any further than between us – it’s our work moving towars something better. We wouldn’t like to show other people our development work but between us we know that it’s a stepping stone. It’s difficult to find a relationship like that, to find somebody who you are compatible with. So I wouldn’t recommend it for everyone, but if you find someone like that then it’s a great way of working.
JF: Being able to glance over a screen is part of the magic of it – so we’ll have to ensure that when we’re passing files over in future that they’re in a raw state, not too polished.
KE: It’s that kind of trust where you know you won’t be laughed at, if what you’ve done is crap.
Also, as a frequent visitor to your studio, I am never offered a cup of tea? Can you say why this is?
JF: Because the kettle lead doesn’t reach the socket. It’s actually wired in to part of the building and we can’t move it. That’s the truth!From Mark Blamire, Blanka/Neue:
You both have an incredible love of music and this comes across in the way that you handle the design of the music packaging projects. Which artist would Non-Format get a real kick out of working with, if you had the choice of repackaging anyone?
JF: Going back in time? It’s difficult – I wouldn’t want to meddle with history if it was redoing the Blue Monday sleeve, I wouldn’t want to mess with that and the space-time continuum…
KE: But someone like Tom Waits – I think his musical output has been far better than any of his sleeve artwork.
JF: People like Talking Heads always hooked up with great visual people whereas Waits didn’t seem to do that.
KE: There are some covers that are better than others, but the general feel of it is that they’re very traditional. So he would have been nice to package througout his career. Other than that, we’d like to work with someone like the next Bjork; people who indulge in great visuals.From Simon Zirkunow:
A lot of your work is based on visually stunning and yet very expensive production techniques. How do you persuade your clients that it’s worth it?
JF: It’s about trust. Some of our record lable clients we’ve had for years and it’s taken time – with a new record company there’s no way they’re going to go with something with high production values. They have their own set up with printers they’re used to, working on digi-pack or jewel case. For example, we’ve spent years working with Lo Recordings and for the Red Snapper job, we just found out what the budget was for the job and that was the key to it. We could then allocate it in a different way. It wasn’t actually that expensive either.
KE: It was work-intensive for us in terms of finding the people. We put in a lot more effort – you have to take control.
How did you leave the typical design ground behind, ultimately leading to the unique work you are doing now?
KE: We’ve been willing to indulge ourselves in stuff that hasn’t paid. Over the seven years we’ve been working together there have been times where we’ve not taken a salary. Basically, we’ve tried to go for what we’ve wanted to produce – we haven’t really had a great business plan!
JF: Sometimes I wish we had rich uncles who could fund us. But we indulge ourselves with our passion to design things and then the money is secondary, which isn’t very good.
KE: It’s satisfactory as a way of working – but the two don’t go hand in hand. It’s proven truth that sometimes you do little projects that you get hardly anything for and that project leads to something that actually will pay. That’s more the way that we like to think about it.
How long does it take you to develop one of your custom typefaces?
JF: It depends on the typeface. Sometimes we work quite quickly and they’re exactly what we want for the job. Others need more work.
KE: Some won’t be the whole alphabet either, just the letters that you need. Then later you might go back to them.
JF: It might look great for the letters you need but might not for the rest of the alphabet. We had that with the Wire – we hoped and prayed that they wouldn’t write a headline with a Z in it! We didn’t have one.
Also, what is the most rewarding experience for you after you finished a piece?
JF: Having the work come in looking exactly right: it’s printed well – exactly as you wanted it. Then seeing it in the store, that next stage on.
KE: Seeing it function as what it was meant to be. And that goes the same for the disappointment side of things too. You can be very involved in something and then when the final product comes in and it’s not printed well… it’s as disappointing as something else can be rewarding.
JF: Another really important thing for us both is the Andy Warhol factor – producing hundreds or thousands of something and then seeing lots of them in the same space is enormously satisfying. That mass-production – I never get over that.From Akrok:
How do you guys deal with clients that want tons of stuff in a very short time? Do you raise the price? Or try to squeeze it in the schedule? Or just tell them you need more time?
JF: All three. It depends on the project. Some projects aren’t that attractive, there isn’t much money and there’s no time. There’s that thing that “you can have it done well, you can have it done quickly, you can have it done cheaply – pick two”. We don’t quite adhere to that – we end up doing it all quickly, well and for no money!From stupidapp:
How do you rationalize and explain (to yourselves and to clients) the imagery that you create for works like Black Devil Disco Club or The Chap EPs?
KE: Seeing something and liking it. And seeing it and liking it while you’re listening to the music.
JF: Yes, in terms of rationalising it – we just like it. And we try and convey that to the client.
KE: We get a belief in something that we think is good. There was one time, however, when a recording artist started crying when he saw the designs we had done – because we had used a dog on the cover and he had a phobia of dogs. It was the most peculiar presentation ever. It was so strange to have a design that was really good and was rejected because of this – he broke down crying! He was keen on our work – but couldn’t stand the thought of having a dog on the sleeve.
JF: Those sleeves mentioned in the questions are also both on Lo Recordings so we’ve built up a relationship with them – it’s rare that they question our judgement now.From Thor:
Nice work but why do you show yourselves with cut-off-heads?
KE: They were originally done for Creative Review as a portrait.
JF: I guess it comes from vanity – we don’t particularly like being photographed so we created silhouettes and overlapped them so there was a sense of us unified. Cutting them off resolved what to do with the neck but we liked the reference to when they used to put heads on spikes at the edge of the city as an example to others. I think there’s something in that connotation.From WOWBROW:
What’s your favourite pizza topping?
KE: I think I’d have to go for parmesan and rocket.
JF: Pepperoni for me every time – you can pretty much put anything you like with it. As long as it’s not pineapple.
